Joakim is the resident interviewer for the D Blog. He has also interviewed members of the D community for This Week in D and is responsible for the Android port of LDC.
Mihails Strasuns, known as Dicebot on the D newsgroup, is a well-known community member who works for Sociomantic, one of the largest commercial users of D and host of the previous and upcoming DConfs in Berlin. He has given talks about declarative programming at DConf 2014 and the process of transitioning from D1 (D 1.0) to D2 (D 2.0), at DConf 2015; acted as review manager for several additions to the standard library, Phobos; and is the current manager for DIPs (D Improvement Proposals), a process for suggesting changes to the D language. He also maintains the D packages for Arch Linux.
Joakim: Please tell us about yourself: who you are and where you’re from, what programming languages you used before D, and take us from your experience first discovering and using D to getting involved with its development.
Mihails: This is quite long story to tell but I will try to keep details to bare minimum.
My real name is Михаил Страшун, age 27, coming from Latvia. Have been into programming since early primary school – initially started with Pascal courses for kids and continued with informatics competitions and small pet projects in Delphi . After ending secondary school got my first job which was also about Delphi but by that time I have already understood that it isn’t most practical specialization. So next was C++ and next few years have been spent moving between small Latvian companies doing VoIP and CCTV server software. Ended up in local outsourcing company doing part of a huge LTE project for Nokia Siemens Networks. That was also my introduction to the world of barebone programming and plain C.
Shortly before that (in something like 2010) I have stumbled upon Andrei Alexandrescu article The Case For D and immediately got hooked. With fresh memories of learning C++ the hard way, it just felt like a breakthrough. There wasn’t any practical application I could use D for at that point so it remained purely theoretical interest for a long time. At that point, best thing about D was reading the newsgroup and studying papers and articles linked from there – which also sparked my interest about programming language design in general.
It is quite telling that it took me about 30 minutes from trying “Hello, World” to finding first Phobos bug. And 1 day to find first DMD bug. D toolchain stability has really improved since 2011. 🙂 Because of that I didn’t initially have the courage to try D even for pet project. To be honest, I still don’t have any, preferring to contribute to projects of others I have interest in. Resulting contrast between my work activities in C and spare time contributions in D started a series of events that resulted in me being hired by Sociomantic Labs in 2013.
Regarding D development involvement – I don’t feel like I am really part of it, even if perception is sometimes different. I simply do stuff that feels necessary and that no one else seems to work on. Phobos contributions, compiler features, even review manager activity – it all has happened simply because no one else was doing things I wanted to get done. Stepping up was simply fastest way to make it happen. Can’t even remember when I have created first Phobos/DMD pull request – it was a very casual and natural thing to do. Same with Arch Linux packaging.
I think this is one of the most commonly underrated things about how D development works – one doesn’t need any outstanding expertise or authority to make an impact. No permission of benevolent dictator is needed either – just patience and desire to work on things you want to happen.
Joakim: Sociomantic was started with D1 and has been moving to D2, a transition that you helped set up. You didn’t code much in D2 at Sociomantic initially, what are your impressions of D2 now that you’re using it more?
Mihails: I started with D2 and have used D1 for the first time in my life only in Sociomantic. 🙂
Most of the code I write these days is D2-compatible. But it isn’t what one may expect from idiomatic D code because D1 compatibility is preserved too. The Ocean library is quite a typical example of that kind of code and I am one of its maintainers.
Though there is also bunch of small tools/scripts I write occasionally – those are pure (and maybe even idiomatic) D2. Our migration helper tool, d1to2fix, is one such example and we will probably open-source a bit more in the near future.
But most importantly, since this month I will be spending part of my work time (1-2 days / week) helping D upstream – this is the first step in planned Sociomantic contribution to D Foundation. 🙂 And that definitely means using some bleeding edge D2!
Joakim: Have you written much in D2 outside of Sociomantic? What projects and how was your experience?
Mihails: Sadly, not much. My main point of interest was vibe.d, specifically its MongoDB driver and REST interface generator. The latter has become my personal “playground” for stressing limits of D meta-programming capabilities while still trying to maintain code readability (but initial idea and implementation is 100% by Sönke Ludwig). I used it any time some personal web service was necessary but that didn’t result in anything persistent. There were some minor contributions to tools like DStep or dub but most often it was just trying out various concept and throwing them away.
There is also some amount of D2 activity that is directly related to my job as our upgrade process has been slowly moving forward, but that is more about compiler itself. Like adding more permissive deprecation paths during recent beta release cycle to ensure that we will be able to smoothly go through versions later. Sadly, it is very hard for me to find motivation to work with D both at work and in spare time – my mind urges for more diversity.
Joakim: You forked the Volt programming language repository on github a couple years ago, Rust last year. How do you feel those languages compare to D2? What do you think D2 has done right and wrong?
Mihails: Volt has caught my interest about three years ago. Same as D tries to improve on C mistakes, Volt is an attempt to rethink D design mistakes. It is hard to really compare it with D as a language, because Volt is more of a hobbyist thing that is more of a prototype than finished design. That was one of the best things about my (very short) involvement – all those refreshing design discussions in IRC with no concerns about backwards compatibility and strong desire to get things right. 🙂 At some point I have been seriously considering dropping D and joining Volt development team but joining Sociomantic has changed that. It feels more pragmatic to work on small improvement of language you will actually use than on fundamental things that are likely to remain as hobby.
My attitude to Rust is quite different. Right now I consider it to have a serious advantage over D in embedded/barebone domain, at least when thinking about types of applications I have worked on earlier with C and C++. Last year, I wrote a blog post that compared D vs Rust from my personal point of view, this should give a more detailed explanations about language features. At the same time, I don’t feel tempted to start any personal hobby projects in Rust. It is a very well-designed strict purist language – exactly the kind of tool you want to have to manage big, complicated projects but not that fun to use for small dirty experiments.
These days my main grudge at D is more about process than language itself. It just happened that many of D2 features were added in quick burst when the split from D1 has happened and since then people keep trying to work with that mostly theoretical designs even if practice has shown that some choice were sub-optimal. Commonly mentioned example is choice of attributes like
@safe to be permissive by default. I believe having regular (once in ~5 years) major language revisions could be a better approach to move forward and this was one of the themes for my DConf talk last year. 🙂
Joakim: Please expand on some of these “D design mistakes:” what are the “theoretical designs” that have proven sub-optimal? Not making
@safe the default sounds more pragmatic, not theoretical.
Mihails: By “theoretical” I have meant that certain decisions simply didn’t have any prolonged field-trial period before being set in stone. It felt right to add purity and safety enforcements but only after some years of trying to adjust Phobos to actually use those we started to realize that other way around for defaults could have been better approach. Another example is D module system – it felt perfectly reasonable and elegant when I have first read the spec, but with more D project maintenance experience my opinion has changed. Main issue with it is that there is no way to add new public symbols to libraries in backwards compatible way without risking the breakage of user code (I have explained it in a bit more details in my Rust vs D blog post). Some other aspects we have been discussing in Volt IRC channel is relation between symbol visibility and internal linkage and introduction of more structured template constraints for better error feedback. All kind of stuff that is simply hard to foresee until you actually try it in practice and see how it fails.
Joakim: You certainly have a lot of criticism for D: what do you feel it got right?
Mihails: Just want to make it clear – I don’t have any bad feelings for D, it just the way my naturally grumpy perception works. If I don’t criticize something, that usually means that I am simply not familiar enough with the topic. 🙂
Despite all my complaints D remains one of most pleasant and practical languages I have used. It has a very rewarding learning curve – easy to start with for anyone familiar with C-style languages, easy to get your job done using only subset of language you are comfortable with, easy to slowly adopt more advanced concepts of language one by one. Documentation can be lacking but language itself is very well-designed in that regard. One example of such decisions is choice of string mixins vs macros as primary meta-programming facility. Latter is “cleaner” but former is much easier to jump in, being a very intuitive concept.
It is not about getting any specific feature right but about overall taste of pragmatism that implies small tough trade-offs here and there. And Walter seems to have a pretty good taste. 🙂
Joakim: You’ve been review manager for some Phobos modules over the years: what was good or bad about the experience? Phobos has a reputation for interminable review, what are your thoughts on the current review process?
Mihails: That was a good experience – actually moving on with Phobos proposals instead of them rotting for years in review queue. 🙂 Even rejecting is better than keeping good work completely abandoned with no feedback at all. That was exactly how I have started with this role – there were several interesting proposals in review queue and no one wanted to step up even if required effort was trivial.
Most bad experience comes from attention disbalance. Proposals that target smaller audience and/or have complicated implementation can’t gather enough reviewers to be reliably accepted (like it has happened with new
std.signal). Proposals that are widely demanded and have lot of natural subjectivity (like
std.logger) get debated to death over and over again.
In my opinion there isn’t anything inherently wrong with review process itself (it is quite simple and flexible). It is natural consequence of wanting to get useful things in Phobos and maintaining strict backwards compatibility at the same time. We simply can’t risk accepting anything with debatable API into Phobos because it will be impossible to fix if issues will be found later. And some packages are just so naturally opinionated that making “correct” decision is simply impossible – it is matter of taste!
In the end, it all comes to argument between two camps – those who prefer all-powerful standard library and those who prefer endorsing dub, the D package manager. Actual review process is hardly that important here. When I understood that Phobos is following kitchen sink path and this is not going to change, I have lost any interest in its development.
Joakim: How is the new DIP process you initiated going? Lay out any changes you’ve had to make to the process and how you feel the proposal queue is now.
Mihails: I am quite satisfied with it. There are still small tweaks happening to the process as I gather more feedback from Andrei and Walter of course. For example, for first submitted DIPs I only checked most formal acceptance criteria and Andrei has clearly indicated the bar has to be much higher. But the core process seems to be working as intended right now.
In The Why and Wherefore of the New D Improvement Proposal Process, I have outlined three key goals for new process:
1) introduce some preliminary quality control
2) ensure formal response from language authors
3) transparent DIP status maintenance
(1) is probably the most lacking bit as I am very alien to academical world myself and can’t review proposals with the level of scrutiny that is desired. I could really use some help from other community members with experience in this domain.
But on (2) and (3) there was a huge success in my opinion. Responses provided by Andrei (DIP 1001 and 1002) explain all issues of the proposal in greatest details and provide great insight on decision rationale. And switching to GitHub repository for managing documents naturally helped a lot with (3).
Joakim: You’ve mentioned taste a couple times, including that Walter has “pretty good taste.” What stands out in D as exemplars?
Mihails: I think decision to stick to C syntax family was a big success and remains one of big selling points for D in the language market. C syntax is often criticized for bad grammar decision (for example, with variable declarations) but in practice it proves to not be too big of a deal. But providing some familiar ground for new devs is definitely a big deal.
Slices come to mind too. When I was only learning D it seemed awkward to separate actual dynamic array from its view like that. But eventually I figured out those can be used as view on any kind of contiguous data and started to appreciate how convenient it can be. Like the fact that one can make D string from C string by simply slicing the pointer. That makes you feel good.
Those examples may feel artificial though because “pretty good taste” is not about any specific feature and decision. It just happens that you start using the language and find yourself much more comfortable with it, as opposed to thinking about any of its design aspects in theory. For me D feels like a language which was designed by someone with huge programming experience, even if I can’t truly reflect why.